Strength Renewed

Mikki Wiiliden (00:01.388)
Jess, how are you?

Jess (00:03.028)
I'm X, I'm hot, but not from having a flash. I'm hot because it's hot in where I live here outside of San Francisco, which is just a funny little place because we get all of these erratic temperatures where it'll be like today's Friday and Wednesday was 65 degrees and then yesterday was 70 and today is 97.

Mikki Wiiliden (00:05.003)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Mikki Wiiliden (00:22.99)
Yeah.

Mikki Wiiliden (00:28.994)
That is insane, in fact. Like we have erratic weather-ish, but generally speaking, the temperature itself is consistent-ish, but generally speaking, but the weather is all over the place with it. And of course, this happened last year with you. It was just like so hot all of the time from about the start of your summer.

Jess (00:39.144)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jess (00:47.398)
I know it's no literally. Well, also like it also is it should be noted that I torture myself because we're I think we're finally getting closer to doing this like elusive remodel of some parts of our home. you know, we don't have this thing called air conditioning. So this would be a lot different. I just I just, you know, a little glutton for punishment. So we've waited.

Mikki Wiiliden (01:01.474)
Mm.

Mikki Wiiliden (01:10.84)
Mmm.

Jess (01:12.34)
to get this, because in all fairness, when we did buy our home and we did move here, there was probably like 10 days out of the year that were like squirming. And then now there's more than 10 days. And now it's just like one of those things where you're working from your home and you're here. And it's just, it really does make it feel like you just can't really think straight. But yeah, other than that, you know.

Mikki Wiiliden (01:19.501)
Yeah.

Mikki Wiiliden (01:23.107)
Mm.

Yeah.

Mikki Wiiliden (01:32.238)
Oh, do you know, in our house, we've got like the upstairs, all the heat travels upstairs. It's insulated, double glazed windows. it's similar to you. We get to this point where like, do we just need an air con up here? Like a heat pump that does cold as well. And then by the time we start being serious about it, the weather shifts and we're like, it's bit cooler now, we can do it. We can go through another year without spending $3,000. I'm happy with that.

Jess (02:01.022)
I mean, here it's $15,000. So it's like, it's a really, it's not a cheap investment, but one that would make a big difference for our quality of life. But you're absolutely right. It is really funny, because it's kind of like a hunger pain. know, once you've like eaten something, you're like, I'm fine now. Like, I'm not hangry anymore. Like, what even was that? Like, it feels like that. I always think that Snickers commercial.

Mikki Wiiliden (02:03.913)
wow!

Yeah.

Mikki Wiiliden (02:14.064)
It is.

Mikki Wiiliden (02:20.02)
Yeah, what even was that? Yeah.

Jess (02:26.452)
I don't know if you had it in New Zealand, but it was like, you know, here, eat the Snickers bar, which is so stupid. But like, as soon as they eat Snickers, they're like, huh, you know, and they have a little bit of like chocolate and blood sugar or whatever that is. I'm like, great. Now you're calm. It's a genius marketing. Actually, I want to say shout out to Snickers because we all bought stupid Snickers, even Mickey and I did because, okay, you didn't. I like to put you sometimes in the category. You're like, you did. I did not really buy a Snickers, but I, but I thought about it. How about that came in my head.

Mikki Wiiliden (02:29.804)
Yeah.

Yeah, I know, I wasn't...

Mikki Wiiliden (02:39.2)
It is. It is.

No, I didn't. No. Hello. No, I did not. Don't throw me under the bus. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's, do you know, I've got the woman in my head actually. She was a dancer. You know, when I'm hungry and I'm dancing, I just sniggers and then I can dance again. It picks me up. It takes care of my hunger pains. And she had that pause. Like she couldn't quite grasp what it was.

Jess (03:00.754)
Yes.

Jess (03:05.492)
Yeah, yeah, it makes me happy.

Jess (03:12.348)
Yeah, that's right. What the hell is that? Duh. Yeah, because that's what it is. I always love that you caught me at my bullshit though. I love when you, even when I like, and it's always a great voice in my head. So I was like, don't you bullshit yourself, Jessica. Don't tell yourself some narrative that you know is maybe not true. I always heard the voice in your back, my head with you being like, you can pick to have that.

Mikki Wiiliden (03:12.753)
it's a hunger pain, that's what I had. And I'm like, of course it was a hunger pain, you were hungry. Yeah, eat your sugars, get back to dancing. Yeah.

Mikki Wiiliden (03:22.825)
Hahaha

Mikki Wiiliden (03:28.583)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jess (03:37.554)
Or you can pick to have this, which is gonna do this for yourself anyways, but no judgment, but just don't tell yourself something different. That's what I'm always mindful of. So another reason why I'm appreciative of. I'll start with what I'm grateful for, you. And then my voice in my head, call me on my bullshit. That's what I'm grateful for. I'm not grateful for transitions though. I'm a person who sadly has a very hard time with, I'll just put it out there in hopes that maybe this will help. But I fall in the category of

Mikki Wiiliden (03:40.75)
totally.

Mikki Wiiliden (03:44.247)
Yeah.

Mikki Wiiliden (03:52.238)
That's brilliant.

Yes.

Yeah.

Jess (04:06.696)
birthdays and graduations. We had one this week for my son Jake. They're, I hate to use the word sad because they're not sad, but they feel less sweet and more bitter. You know, like there's just a right. I, and I've always really thought, always think about that and I'm grateful they exist.

Mikki Wiiliden (04:09.614)
Mmm.

Mikki Wiiliden (04:18.541)
Mmm.

Mikki Wiiliden (04:24.046)
yeah, feel it, yes.

Jess (04:36.254)
Like I'm happy that we have them because they're an opportunity to reflect. just wish that the dominant, I'll start there, emotion wasn't... I need another word for sadness. I don't have the word, but put it this way, I don't feel elated, I don't feel excited, and I don't feel happy. My husband, Jeff, who's not here right now, thinks they're amazing. He actually even says that when you feel sad on your birthday, that's sad for me because...

If we didn't have a birthday, if you weren't celebrating a birthday, you wouldn't be on the earth. Right? So for him, it's like, and then same thing, he thinks it's so exciting. Like our son just finished grade yesterday and like, it's so great that Jake made it to this point. So to him there, it's, it's, it's celebratory and he's in the space and we celebrate that versus just sad that it went so fast. And, so I, there's something here.

Mikki Wiiliden (05:08.024)
Yeah, yeah.

Mikki Wiiliden (05:19.534)
Mmm.

Jess (05:32.786)
which is why I always thought, and I think other people are going through that. It's a time of year of graduations and these transitions and these big changes. So I'm always curious to know, I know it's not super black and white, like what side do you stand on, Mickey? But I kind of, when I think about people and I've asked this question before, it is amazing how you are kind of on one or the other, like, you know, in the case of Jeff and I, where are you? Or do even think about it? Is this even something you think about?

Mikki Wiiliden (05:33.182)
Yeah.

Mikki Wiiliden (05:47.95)
Mmm.

Mikki Wiiliden (05:56.242)
yeah, so interesting. like I, when it comes, well, I do in some part, like I, when it comes to birthdays, I always, I love birthdays. I love them. I absolutely am stoked to have a birthday, to still get a birthday and then celebrate the year that was. Although I do, but it doesn't mean that I don't, I'm not like, whoa, where's that time gone? Because that often I feel that too, but it's more of this almost surreal, like, wow, is a year gone?

But I do get a bit perplexed actually with all of the graduations and almost like I mean, I'm all for celebration. I'm not sure how this is going to sound or how this will land. But do we have to have a graduation for every normal step in a child's sort of development? Like I understand, like I sense, I understand that sadness of, you know, the time that's passed that will never...

Jess (06:25.684)
Mm.

Mikki Wiiliden (06:54.446)
be back. And I understand the celebration of an end of an era. And of course, moving from middle school to high school, is that where Jake's... Yes. That is exciting, but I can't remember doing, I think when we finished middle school or intermediate school here, it was a bit joyous. mean, we were sad to leave our teachers, but there was no sort of graduation as such, I guess.

Jess (07:06.578)
Yes, Jake just finished middle school.

Mikki Wiiliden (07:22.99)
But it is I can understand why people have that bittersweet of an end of an era but also excitement and celebrating what's to come and also what's gone like Yeah

Jess (07:33.938)
Yes, and maybe that's maybe you just said it. Maybe the excitement is what's to come, but maybe there's sadness in, you know, what is gone or, you know, what we already finished or what happened. And I, I really do like to, half of the part of discussions and conversations is to find some root of it all. You know what I mean? Where does it stem from?

Mikki Wiiliden (07:40.341)
Mmm.

Mikki Wiiliden (07:55.118)
Mmm.

Mikki Wiiliden (07:58.926)
Mmm.

Jess (08:01.125)
in some ways is it the disruption of the balance? You know, because when something ends, there's the transition, there's the like, kind of the change of it, the rockiness of it, the imbalance of it. And I think to me, that part is hard. Also, the expectation is challenging for me. I still fall a little prey. I think birthdays do this too. Like, there's some kind of

Mikki Wiiliden (08:04.066)
Mmm.

Mikki Wiiliden (08:09.728)
Yes.

Mikki Wiiliden (08:16.533)
Mm-hmm.

Jess (08:30.846)
thing at some point in your life that there's a box of things we should be checking. I'm so trying because like, I'm like, wouldn't it be so easy if we just had a manual of all the things we're supposed to check it every year? I just, I'm really, I guess what I'm trying to say is I'm hopeful for anybody like me that they can be more present in what is to come and excited about what is to come.

Mikki Wiiliden (08:39.086)
Mmm.

Jess (08:59.582)
versus what's already happened, because it already happened. But I tend to be in that space a little bit.

Mikki Wiiliden (09:03.25)
Okay, so you're sort of, yes. And I'm hearing you like the whole, you know, what society expects us to have achieved at a certain point in time. Like for example, with birthdays, you know, if you hit 40, you're supposed to have hit, you know, done all of these things. Or I'm not sure that that was necessarily an expectation, these expectations that I think when you're younger, feels more expectations. Like, you know, by the time you're 30.

Jess (09:11.966)
Hmm. Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Mikki Wiiliden (09:29.462)
when we were growing up, know, if you weren't married, you were sort of late to the party or you hadn't had children, if you were to have children, you'd be slightly older. Whereas I think, feel like those expectations, I don't feel that they're there as much anymore, but I wonder, are these the types of things you're thinking of, Jess, like, at this point in my life, I should have, I don't know, whatever, kind of, I don't know what your neighborhood is like actually, like, are they, yeah.

Jess (09:33.406)
Mm-hmm.

Jess (09:54.612)
competitive. Your neighborhood, if you allow yourself, this neighborhood is beautiful and wonderful, but it can also be, it can be exactly what we're talking about. It can be all of the measures of whatever, even as I say this, I'm like, gosh, external measures are so boring. And you and me too, because I'm always like, I mean, those are just things. mean, we...

Mikki Wiiliden (10:06.242)
Yeah.

Mikki Wiiliden (10:14.282)
Yes!

Jess (10:18.952)
we create an environment and even our podcasts to actually talk about internal measures. You know what I mean? Like what are the things that are actually driving you? What is your intention? You know, what is important? What really drives you? Like the honest conversation, the honest thing inside of yourself. just, I really find this point in life and this period of time interesting. Cause it, it gnaws at me a little bit with that. I almost like,

Mikki Wiiliden (10:24.128)
Yeah.

Mikki Wiiliden (10:28.256)
What's important?

Jess (10:48.692)
count the days down and get anxious like, gosh, Thursday's one day away, know, to his graduation or now we're here. I would just, I feel like if I could let go a little bit more and just release myself, almost really Mickey, if I was to, now that I'm thinking about it and like for the people in my case, maybe it's the thing that we need to practice just almost doing the opposite of what we normally do. I hold on really tight.

Mikki Wiiliden (10:53.568)
Yeah. Mmm.

Mikki Wiiliden (11:16.311)
Mmm. Mm-hmm.

Jess (11:18.292)
to the days, moments in the lead up. Maybe I should just practice letting go. Or here, I'll just show up and see what it looks like and just show up into this space a little bit more carefree almost, a little bit more open to where it could go versus sort of walking in and already being at a deficit. Like I'm walking into this graduation in this environment, not enough.

Mikki Wiiliden (11:22.51)
Mmm.

Mikki Wiiliden (11:27.68)
Yeah, yeah.

Mikki Wiiliden (11:31.883)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Mikki Wiiliden (11:46.498)
Yeah, is this a you thing or is it what you're waiting like because initially because I'm hearing a couple of things and and I'm wondering whether the fact that you're you know, you're a parent and I'm a step parent. It's just and it is different and it's different because I came into our my stepchildren's lives as they were already at certain points. So I haven't been there the whole way through and of course I wonder I bet any parent listening to this Jess is absolutely going to understand.

Jess (12:07.7)
Hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jess (12:15.732)
Hmm.

Mikki Wiiliden (12:16.386)
the feelings that you get, the mixed emotions of seeing your babies continue to grow. because it blows my mind how quickly Finlay and Honey have grown up into almost, mean, Honey is an adult and Finlay's getting there. this is at a very short period of time that I've really been in their lives, I guess with Finlay, it's been half its life. Whereas you've just been there the whole time. And the relationship with the parents changes, kids get older too.

Jess (12:45.268)
Hmm.

Mikki Wiiliden (12:45.76)
instead of you being their most, you know, that they lean on you as much as they do, they start to be more independent, they start to turn to their friend groups for more of that influence. Is part of this, is this part of the emotion? Is this anything that you think about?

Jess (13:01.944)
I mean, it's so great that you're bringing it up because I think even as for parents and step parents too, it's all very subconscious. I'm glad you're saying it because I don't even know that you're... Sometimes you want to make sense of the emotion, right? And I think I'm trying to make sense of the emotion. But yes, I definitely think that all of a sudden... And it's not really all of a sudden. It's a long buildup. If we're being honest with ourselves, like the...

Mikki Wiiliden (13:11.854)
Mmm.

Mikki Wiiliden (13:19.34)
Yeah, yeah.

Jess (13:30.74)
It does give us time. We do transition in just like as the graduation is the day, it's that moment, but there was a lot of moments leading up to that moment. And, but I do think, yeah, you're not a hundred percent sure what your role is. You're trying on the outfit and running in the new running shoes and seeing how the mile is going to feel in a new pair of Nikes versus Asics or Hokas. It's kind of like, that's what I'm doing right now. I'm like trying on different pairs of new shoes.

Mikki Wiiliden (13:32.814)
Mmm. Mmm.

Mikki Wiiliden (13:38.926)
Mmm.

Mikki Wiiliden (13:55.552)
Mmm.

Mikki Wiiliden (14:00.393)
Mm-hmm.

Jess (14:00.564)
because this is a new place to be and I haven't been in shoes, no pun intended. And I'm just trying to get comfortable in them. And you can relate, a parent, a step, or anybody who's been in that role, sometimes there's roles you like better. Right? Sometimes there's moments you just prefer. So how do you respond in times that just feel a little uncomfortable?

Mikki Wiiliden (14:05.494)
Yeah, yeah.

Mikki Wiiliden (14:19.713)
Mmm. Yeah.

Jess (14:30.228)
How do you get to the next mile in a shoe that maybe feels a little tight? Look at me and my ridiculous amount of metaphors. Here I am. Thank you for allowing me to speak in a lot of metaphors tonight, but some days that's just the easiest way to describe it. I am working on letting go of where I think I should be because I've never been here. So why is there a should in the place I've never been? I've never been in this place before. So it's new.

Mikki Wiiliden (14:30.318)
Mmm.

Mikki Wiiliden (14:34.083)
Mmm, yeah,

You

Mikki Wiiliden (14:44.096)
Yeah.

Mikki Wiiliden (14:54.638)
I know because, so that's the other thing that I was going to say is that I hear the one thing which I described, but why are you not enough here? What is that about? Yeah, because that's what you'll, that's why.

Jess (15:04.871)
I love that. Well, you should ask that one more time. You just asked me, why are you not say it again? That was good.

Mikki Wiiliden (15:10.562)
Why are you not enough? I don't understand that part of it. So why does this relate to you and what you bring to it? Because you've said a couple of times, I'm not enough for this. And I'm like, we're not talking. I didn't think that that's what we were talking about. But obviously this is another underlying thing that maybe you're not, I don't know. Did you mean to say that?

Jess (15:18.996)
Mmm.

Jess (15:23.924)
Mmm.

Jess (15:28.34)
Oh, that's good, Max. You just went right in there. Little tear might be shed. Yeah, that's really good. That's really good. No, it's good. That's kind of like one of those things where you do just, you 100 % feel that. Yeah, you know, it's such a beautiful question, actually. I have to kind of sit with that for a second, because it's, you know, I'm not sure why I...

Mikki Wiiliden (15:40.673)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Mikki Wiiliden (15:52.748)
Yeah.

Jess (15:54.376)
would think that. think you just assume it. Somehow you assume me. I always say me in hopes that by sharing my space, there are plenty of other me's that are like, that's me too, right? I think anytime I listen to somebody's story, there's a little bit of my story and their story and a little bit of their story and mine. And so I think it's just an automatic response of hoping that you're enough.

Mikki Wiiliden (16:03.854)
I know, I know. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mikki Wiiliden (16:14.136)
course.

Jess (16:22.664)
for yourself and that you're enough for your child and whomever you're serving. I think about this in many ways, but I think it's particularly strong because there's such an intensity around parenting and there's such an intensity around child-bearing and there's such an intensity around these big moments. You can make them as big as you want to, Mick, but we'll just...

Mikki Wiiliden (16:23.725)
Yeah.

Mmm.

Mikki Wiiliden (16:30.059)
Yeah.

Mikki Wiiliden (16:41.39)
Mmm.

Mikki Wiiliden (16:46.936)
Mm.

Yeah.

Jess (16:52.03)
call it what that is, can illuminate maybe things that you're proud of or that you're struggling with. Or maybe you're not even believing that you're struggling with something, but you're just, you think where you are somehow is not enough or you should be in this place. I've always dreamed of maybe I should just start now like, well, I mean, I did the absolute best that I could and I feel really good about that best, you know, today, whatever that is.

Mikki Wiiliden (16:53.356)
Yeah, sure.

Mikki Wiiliden (17:00.782)
Mmm.

Yeah.

Mikki Wiiliden (17:15.886)
Mmm.

Yeah. Yeah. That would be such an amazing narrative to go through the summer with. there's I mean, you and you said it so so easily. So it's there and you know, but isn't it interesting how these other default narratives come into our mind that you

Jess (17:21.736)
it's a, it's, I, that'd be cool. Gosh.

Jess (17:33.374)
Mm-hmm.

Jess (17:37.428)
I've got the default narrative is like really loud. know, it's like, it's like real, the default net's a hundred percent best way to put it. We are in default, a lot of default narratives, you know, we immediately save them. We're not strong enough or not, you know, our bodies look this way. Our success is really, you know, that's a big old one. And right. Yeah. There's just a lot, you know, you don't really walk in and be like, they really showed up in the absolute.

Mikki Wiiliden (17:40.224)
I know, I know.

And it, yeah.

Yeah.

Mikki Wiiliden (17:56.374)
I know I'm not good enough, I'm stupid and all of it.

Jess (18:06.844)
you know, most intentional, authentic way in this moment. And funny because, you know, I talk a lot about this, but this podcast and this conversation, the conversations we have, I really show up exactly as I am, where I am in this moment, right? So it's a nice, I know I can. Maybe I'd have to remind myself that I am doing it in these other areas too.

Mikki Wiiliden (18:23.054)
Mmm.

Yeah.

Mikki Wiiliden (18:30.574)
Mmm.

Jess (18:35.188)
and to maybe take a little bit of the pressure and the weight off of the moment. Let the moment just be the moment. Like we're there, our presence. I'm a big show up kind of person. You know, I was like, that's a values type of thing for me.

Mikki Wiiliden (18:39.745)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no, I know this. I know this about you. And the thing is with anything with default narratives, it just takes time to... You've got to be it till you see it. It's not fake it till you make it, isn't it? It's be it till you see it. But it's just always going to be a work on for almost everyone. You know, like to believe that you are enough when you...

Jess (18:57.128)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's beauty.

Mikki Wiiliden (19:08.312)
walk into the room and you show up at that, I don't know, presentation or you show up for your clients or you're on Instagram live, you know, all of that stuff. Like you just have to, but it's not like you can just go, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, you know, back myself now. It's like every day you have to do something that reminds, that puts you in that space. That's why I love, I love listening to podcasts of business owners and, and athletes and you know, like, I mean, you're the same as well. know, you know, you just get this, this, okay.

Jess (19:26.952)
Yes, %

Jess (19:37.501)
exciting.

Mikki Wiiliden (19:38.474)
It's, you know, this is a different way of thinking about things and I get really inspired by it, which is of course a topic for another podcast.

Jess (19:44.532)
Do transitions trigger you the way that they do a little bit of that to me? is that triggering default narratives? Do you go into like, are they're just like, great, cool, this is, we're having this big event. I mean, does it do anything to you? Does it kind of elicit something or is it just like, great, cool, we're gonna go do the graduation or here's the birthday or like, is there anything that kind of swims around for you in your nervous system?

Mikki Wiiliden (19:54.542)
Hmm.

Mikki Wiiliden (19:59.854)
Mmm.

Mikki Wiiliden (20:13.32)
Not in a like, of course I feel reflective and I feel depending on what it is, know, depend, it totally depends on what it is, you know, like, I get excited for birthdays, but I also get reflective of what the last year has been and the same with Christmas and the, you know, like, at all points, I'm thinking about things like that. So I don't have a, there's not a particular way, I don't think. So I can't, I can't,

Jess (20:16.273)
Mm-hmm.

Mikki Wiiliden (20:43.16)
give you my definitive answer because I think depending on what it is depends on how I'm going to feel about it.

Jess (20:53.876)
Well, so that's so interesting because you, so in a way you're just more open in these kind of experiences. I think I have a tendency when it comes to graduations or birthdays or I'm just thinking of like big events, I have a default narrative which says I should have done more prior to this event. That's my default narrative almost 99 % of the time. So that's kind of the full circle thing that I came to. You're like, I'm just gonna enter in.

Mikki Wiiliden (21:02.958)
Mmm. Yes. Yeah, okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Mmm.

Mikki Wiiliden (21:18.51)
you

Jess (21:21.204)
Well, however this looks like today, right? I have a head and a protein. Am I like in a good head space? Let's do the thing. And for me, the buildup is real. So no matter how much sleep and how much protein and how good my hair looks or how on top of it and prepared I've been physically or mentally or spiritually, I still don't feel enough. Those lead ups make me feel like I'm nervous about the day because the day holds.

Mikki Wiiliden (21:21.58)
Yes.

Yeah, yeah.

Mikki Wiiliden (21:42.328)
Mmm.

Jess (21:48.794)
a power that I've probably given it that maybe it didn't need to have in the first place. Like I'd love to like reverse engineer that default narrative on the days leading up to this thing so that I can just be like free, a little more free to experience them.

Mikki Wiiliden (21:49.869)
Yeah.

Mikki Wiiliden (21:53.806)
Yeah.

Mikki Wiiliden (21:58.466)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mikki Wiiliden (22:06.646)
you need to listen to it. first of all, I'll say, I never wonder if I've had enough protein because I almost always do. It's just not something I think about to be honest. But you should listen to...

Jess (22:09.076)
Ha

Jess (22:17.259)
my God, that's freeing. Didn't wonder if I've, we all aim to be Mickey, to literally be at the end of the day and be like, have not as one fear and worry off my plate.

Mikki Wiiliden (22:26.638)
Yeah, do not have to worry about that. Brene Brown, you need to listen to her on Tim Ferriss. You need a bit of Brene Brown love. And you need exposure every day to that kind of thinking, don't you? Not you, but universal you. Yeah.

Jess (22:34.683)
She's one of my favorites.

Jess (22:39.06)
That is a really, no, 100%. Universal you, that is a wonderful way to put it. Exposure is another great word. You used two really good concepts today. Default narratives, what are our default narratives when we enter into situations? I think it's...

Mikki Wiiliden (22:54.284)
Mm-hmm.

Jess (22:55.092)
I think it is super important. In fact, we started this whole conversation with what we're grateful for. I was like, mean, Mickey doesn't take my bullshit. We're each other's bullshit. And by the way, she doesn't take, I mean, the same goes for vice versa. I mean, there's some things I've called her on to. like, I gotta get it. All right, fine. But you have to have the people that are just like, I am here and love you up and support you. And if you want to go down with that thought process, that's fine.

Mikki Wiiliden (23:04.974)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Jess (23:18.206)
but I'm here to also remind you of this thought in this process that you can take too. And so the default narrative thing I think is also kind of in line with that. Like it's not that it's easy to shift the narrative, but just remember there's another one there for you too. If you don't want the one that you're wearing all the time in these particular cases, there's another one that you can go to. And then I think the way you get to the one that might serve you better is exposure.

Mikki Wiiliden (23:21.006)
Mmm. Mmm.

Mikki Wiiliden (23:40.972)
Yeah.

Jess (23:45.96)
which I'm not 100 % sure how to do that necessarily, but I think, how would I mean? But it's a great concept. We're trying to think of like, how would I expose, yeah, exposure therapy.

Mikki Wiiliden (23:46.1)
yeah.

Mikki Wiiliden (23:53.75)
Exposure therapy. So what it is, it's like, and this is, I'm using it in a way that is not the scientific way. I'm just literally thinking, you just need to get yourself in front of, and like in science, exposure therapy is used to help alleviate sort of fears, like illogical fears, like fears of spiders and heights and stuff. And there's a very sort of step-by-step process with which to do it. But I'm literally talking about,

Jess (24:02.036)
It's fine, we're not being scientific, we're talking.

Mmm.

Jess (24:14.046)
Mmm. Mmm.

Mikki Wiiliden (24:22.294)
exposure therapy to me in terms of these conversations are like, you need to get yourself in front of information that tells you how to do it differently, that it shows you how to do it differently. That's why I said Brene Brown on a podcast listening to her by reading books around the idea that you're enough, listening to Mel Robbins if you're into Mel Robbins, to be fair, Mel's great, she's very black and white, I'm not 100 % on board with her to be fair, but that's fine.

Jess (24:49.14)
Same, same.

Mikki Wiiliden (24:52.29)
But stuff like that, like changing the way you think literally requires like reading material that tells you how to do that. And there's this great book and I talk about it all the time in my groups and Jill got me onto it and she may have said it in our legacy group as well, called the as if principle, you act as if you're already the person you wanna be. You don't need the book. I mean, the title tells you all you need to know.

Jess (25:08.873)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Jess (25:14.844)
Yes, I don't have that book, but yeah, let's find it. Yeah, I know, right. Yeah, but it'd be good to listen to it, right, mm-hmm.

Mikki Wiiliden (25:21.986)
So that's what I mean. Yeah, I absolutely would. But the first thing you should do is download that Brené Brown on Tim Ferriss, because she was amazing on that podcast.

Jess (25:33.14)
It was the podcast was, was it Tim Ferriss? Okay, right. Yes. I do know Tim Ferriss. Yep. But it's a good reminder. mean, it's, this is, this is always good to bring it back. Cause I would definitely say that Brene is, the reason I wanted to be in, to be a podcaster. you what I mean? Like to have this. I she was one of my beginning inspirations cause her work was just

Mikki Wiiliden (25:35.736)
Tim Ferris. Yeah, do you know him? He's a four hour body. Four hour work week. Yeah, yeah, he's so good.

Mikki Wiiliden (25:57.309)
Amazing. Yeah.

Jess (26:02.676)
And I think for a lot of people, but it was just different and it hit differently. I love to name things. I think being able to name it allows you to understand it outside of yourself. And this was the whole point of these conversations is that when you can name it, you can look at it like this, you know what I mean? Versus it just walking around kind of inside of you with nowhere to go. So I think giving it a place and being able to talk about it. And also like moral of the story for all.

Mikki Wiiliden (26:03.308)
Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Mikki Wiiliden (26:14.304)
Totally. Yes.

Mikki Wiiliden (26:20.066)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mikki Wiiliden (26:25.166)
Mm-hmm.

Jess (26:31.58)
all of us, whatever. Also, there has to be some level of enjoyment and joy in this whole thing. And when you're walking with the default expectation for right, you're just a little bit, you're a little bit more weighted by it. And I know that I feel it. I wouldn't say that I'm like a void of joy in the moment. I'm certainly like excited and proud. I still have all that. But there's also real estate that's being taken up by.

Mikki Wiiliden (26:39.37)
I know how miserable! mean, I know! Yes!

Yeah.

Mikki Wiiliden (26:51.448)
Good.

Mikki Wiiliden (26:59.971)
Yeah.

Jess (27:00.596)
by this little bit of lot of it of the default expectation or the thing that you feel like you should be or do and it's just like, let's move on. Let's figure it out. Let's do a different strategy. But I do need exposure therapy. Right?

Mikki Wiiliden (27:11.278)
Life is short, Jess. Yeah, life is short. We can't spend our day. You cannot be weighed down by things which are just telling you, it's just, you deserve to feel better than that. Yeah, I know. Well, I'll tell you what, I'm about to feel a whole lot. Actually, I don't know I'm gonna feel, but in about half an hour, I'm gonna be sitting in a movie theater watching Mission Impossible.

Jess (27:29.108)
You're right. You're 100 % right. Yep, it's good.

Jess (27:41.884)
I mean, can we all just be really clear? One of my most favorite things to do, especially when it's blazing hot, is go into a cool, air-conditioned theater, eat a little popcorn, and watch a movie, because it's pretty darn fantastic. I like malt balls too, in my popcorn. A little sweet and salty.

Mikki Wiiliden (27:42.638)
Can't wait.

Mikki Wiiliden (27:59.474)
yeah, nice one. Well I love Tom Cruise, I really do. I've always loved him and he's such an amazing actor. So we're gonna go spend three hours sitting and the weather is terrible here so it's a perfect thing to do on a Saturday afternoon.

Jess (28:05.576)
to Frio. He is.

Jess (28:14.676)
Well, that's so fun. I'm glad that you're taking a little moment to do that, either that or six hour run. So I'm glad you're here to watch a three hour movie. It's perfect. Give your feet a break. What are you grateful for today?

Mikki Wiiliden (28:19.415)
Yeah.

Mikki Wiiliden (28:27.29)
I am grateful that we have these conversations because it gets me to understand more about where your head's at and then you're able and hopefully at least, you I think having these conversations get people thinking a bit differently. And I mean, what a privilege to be able to put this out there on the internet for that.

Jess (28:46.004)
I could not agree more. think it is a true privilege for people to have a place in a space to reorient their thinking. You are only, let me just remind everybody of this, we are only our thoughts. let, you know, if we can practice thinking differently, it's a really, really powerful position to be in. But yes, I started with what I'm grateful for, which is always you, but it is particularly great to have somebody who can just

Mikki Wiiliden (28:54.22)
Mmm. Mmm.

Mikki Wiiliden (29:00.194)
Yeah, 100%.

Mikki Wiiliden (29:08.023)
Yeah.

Jess (29:15.326)
calling on your stuff and still lovingly support you as they do. So thank you for being both of those things. I'll send you the cute picture of Jake looking very cute in his graduation outfit. Have fun watching Mission Impossible.

Mikki Wiiliden (29:18.926)
You are welcome Jess, you enjoy. I hope you don't melt in that. I would love to see it. That'd be amazing. Thank you. Bye.